10,000 Sentences: How
10,000 sentences is a lot. But the way we’re doing it, you can easily learn about 50 every day no sweat, and even more if you want to. Don’t freak out if you only do 15-25 every day. The important thing is to learn every day.
You will need:
- Computing device(s) (PC, electronic dictionary, PDA, etc.)
- An SRS (KhatzuMemo, Mnemosyne, etc.)
- One or more sentence sources (dictionary, movies, music)
In order to have learned a sentence you need to be able to do 4 things:
1. Read it in full, aloud, with kanji, no furigana.
Furigana are great for when you’re reading comics and such, and I heartily recommend you use books that have them, but you need to learn to function without them.
2. Know the meaning of every word in the sentence.
I don’t suggest you over-analyze the sentence, but you should know the function of each part of the sentence, otherwise you can’t truly be said to be understanding it. You don’t need to provide an exact translation when you give your answer, in fact, don’t bother translating at all. Of course, early on, you will be using Japanese and English together (later, Japanese only), and you will need probably get translations of the sentences, so put those translations in the “answer” field of your SRS; use them as a check of your understanding. But again, you just need to remember the gist of the translation (not the exact wording) for it to count as knowing the sentence.
3. Understand the meaning of the entire sentence
4. Write (copy) out the sentence by hand
This is so you get practice writing Japanese — you don’t have to do this for every sentence, but do at for as many as you can. You should do this on graph paper (one square per character). If you have no graph paper around, do without until you get some. By our definition, if you cannot do any one of these 4 things, then you have not learned the sentence. Notice how:
- This does not involve looking at an English sentence and translating it into Japanese. Do not translate from English to Japanese. Why? Well, because there are so many possible translations for a given sentence, how are you going to say which is right and which is wrong? Are you only going to count the one you’ve got written down? That’s too restrictive and too failure-prone. What’s more, if you get the Japanese sentence wrong, you haven’t just made a mistake, you’ve sown the seeds of bad Japanese. Good Japanese starts with mindlessly imitating good Japanese. Don’t go inventing your own Japanese; no one will understand you. You’ll be doing the Japanese equivalent of “all your base are belong to us” (Japanese discussion of the same) “全ての貴方のベースは私に属する”. It sounds weird…off.
- Nor does it involve saying or writing the sentence from memory. Do not memorize the sentences. That’s too complex and too failure-prone. If you’re like me, you can barely memorize words, let alone sentences.
“But wait, if I don’t memorize it, how do I know I know it?”. Oh-ho. That’s where the SRS comes in. When you first learn a sentence, of course you’ll “remember it”. What counts isn’t so much that first time, as 2, 3, 10, 52 weeks later. Thanks to an SRS, you will be given the chance to truly test your knowledge, by reading that sentence several times over several weeks and months. By doing that successfully, that sentence will be in your brain, pretty much like white on rice. In other words you will memorize the sentence just by seeing and reading it repeatedly over time. The SRS will take care of things to make sure that you see new sentences or sentences you keep forgetting, more often than old sentences that you know well.
Seeing and reading things repeatedly over time is just how advertising works; you can remember sentences like “You can’t beat the feeling”, some 15 years after Coca-Cola stopped even using that slogan. It’s also how it is that you can memorize the words of an entire movie (Independence Day, anyone?) But, yes, it takes time, and for a while you don’t believe you’re learning because you (apparently) have nothing to “show” for it. This is part of why classes are so bad. Classes are generally too focused on output—on display—but not on what is really going on inside.
So, even though just being able to read short sentences aloud is so easy, you are learning. Recently (October 8, 2006), I had to stand before a Japanese audience and read aloud some documents that I had never seen before （祝電＝しゅくでん）, and it was no problem at all; I can read the same as your “average” adult in Japan, and I’m not smarter than you.
While you will eventually memorize a lot of the sentences, you will almost certainly not memorize all of them. But if you were to hear or read them (or sentences similar to them), you would understand them. This is important. Why? Well:
- In every language you speak, your passive vocabulary (what you understand) always outstrips your active vocabulary (what you say/write)
- It is generally far for more important to understand other people, than to make yourself understood. It’s fine if you can ask for directions, but if you can’t understand the response…might as well take the next train to Whatsthepointville. More broadly—the simple fact that you are outnumbered 1 to several billion, means that you’re going to spend much of your life receiving input;; there are more people, books and videos than there are of you. If you are to function as an independent, mature adult in any society, then it is imperative, I mean, really, really, important, that you fully understand the written and spoken input of the world around you.
So, remember input precedes output. ALWAYS.
Readings of Kanji
As you know, in Japanese, a single kanji generally has two pronunciations (readings), sometimes less, sometimes more. Something that this method implies is that readings of kanji will take care of themselves just in the sentences you read. You don’t need to go learning the readings separately—learning things completely out of context like that has always been too boring, meaningless and ineffective, at least for me. Learning to read aloud thousands of sentences you will eventually get the feel for when to use which reading in any given situation. And you will also learn the exceptions; and there are plenty of exceptions. Not only that, but learning kanji readings in the context of a sentence is just easier—perhaps because a sentence connects everything in it with some rhythm or meaning. I don’t know the real reason just like I don’t know why electromagnetism works, but I know that it’s effective.
Examples
Look at these examples of sentences in the typical question-answer (Q-A) form flashcard. Note that the answer is not always necessarily the full “answer” that you give, it’s more a clue—definitions of words, etc.
QUESTION (FRONT):
これは例文です。
ANSWER (BACK):
これ は（わ） れい・ぶん です。
This [as for] example-sentence is. (PL3)
*This is an example sentence.
QUESTION (FRONT):
お前は何者だ？
ANSWER (BACK):
お・まえ は（わ） なに・もの だ
おまえ【御前】同等または､目下の相手をゾンザイに､また親愛の情を込めて呼ぶ語｡
現代では､多く､男が使う｡対等の親しい関係では｢おれ｣に対し｢お前｣と言う｡
なにもの【何者】姓名･身分などの分からない者を指していう語｡どういう人｡だれ｡何人(ﾅﾆﾋﾞﾄ)｡｢昨日の君の相手は何者かね｣。
めした【目下】地位または年齢が自分より下であること｡また､その人｡
Update: I’ve made some major improvements to this, discussed here.
Observe the following things:
- The direction is from Japanese only.
- Initially you can go Japanese-to-English, but eventually, you should start going Japanese-to-Japanese only. For me, this was at about 500-1000 sentences. The effect of using only Japanese to discuss Japanese is pretty phenomenal; it’s like your Japanese becomes a self-sustaining reaction. You will probably have to do a lot of looking up, such that your answer area may contain definitions of definitions. That’s super! Because everything you are doing is exercising your Japanese skills.
- It’s important to either access to an Internet dictionary or a software dictionary installed on your computer. That way, you can look up at the push of a button. A paper dictionary is fine for browsing, but for looking up an actual, specific word, it is BMT: brutal, medieval and time-consuming.
Credit
It would be nice if the sentence idea were my own, but the truth is that it belongs to a small group of Poles who learnt English to native-level fluency before ever leaving Poland. They even built a website about their work in learning English. The great thing about their site is that what’s true for learning English is largely true for learning any other language, including Japanese. Warning: I heartily encourage you to read their site. But unfortunately, while a former SuperMemo user/evangelist myself, I cannot recommend the SuperMemo software as they do. Fortunately, there are similar programs out there that do what SuperMemo does, for free. One of those is Mnemosyne.
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CharleyGarrett said,
October 24, 2006 @ 11:36 pm
OK, Katsumotosama, I get the idea. Input, yes. Books, movies, yes! Here’s where I’m stymied (from a sentence on the AntiMoon site). How do you decide which sentences from your input to copy over to your SRS? Not every one, surely! Of course. You don’t need a bunch of sentences of the form “Hon da.” “Pen da.” “Jitensha da.” Is there no other suggestion than “pick the ones you like”? Maybe “pick the sentences that you might like to repeat someday”? Or that say something like something that I might like to say. Or understand if said? Can you talk about that aspect of 10,000 sentences?
Charles said,
October 24, 2006 @ 11:45 pm
I must say that I absolutely love your attitude and blog. Sorry it went down but here’s to
a new beginning!! There’s so much I want to say but I’ll limit it to a comment about the post.
I want to write sentences to learn but I have a few questions before I start.
1) Where do you get the sentences? (internet, etc?)
2) Do you make example sentences for grammar points or just vocab?
3) I have a decent level of skill, do you think I should jump into the J-to-J cards?
Good luck at your new job!
charles
Steven said,
March 14, 2007 @ 10:31 am
I don’t know if this is the right way to do this but
do you just type in sentences and just learn them straight off the bat?
how do you manage to memorize the kanji readings and stuff?
khatzumoto said,
March 15, 2007 @ 9:52 am
>how do you manage to memorize the kanji readings and stuff?
1. Learn the reading of each kanji as it used in the sentence. So, rather than learn all the readings of a given kanji, learn the one reading that is being used *in this case*–in the sentence at had.
2. Add that kanji reading to the “answer” section of the SRS.
Note:
(i) A sentence has a kind of rhythm to it that will actually make the reading quite easy to remember, generally speaking. Certainly, it will be easier to remember than an isolated kanji reading.
(ii) Also, be sure to use SHORT sentences to begin with, don’t overwhelm yourself. Something like 「テレビを見る。」 or 「夕食の支度をする。」 or 「慌てて登校する。」 is a good length.
(iii) Use sentences that have multiple parts of speech. What I mean is, you want nouns, verbs and adverbs/adjectives all in there.
Remember, in order to say you “know” a sentence, you need to:
1. Understand the meaning of every word in the sentence
2. Be able to read the sentence correctly ALOUD (i.e. know the reading of every kanji in the sentence)
3. Know/understand the meaning of the sentence as a whole. Not just “sort of understand”, but REALLY understand what is meant, and the context in which it was/is being used.
4. Write it out [no need to write it out from memory, you can just copy it down, but DO write it; this is to get writing practice; this is important because no matter how well you’ve memorized kanji via Heisig, if you stop writing them, you willl start to forget; using a computer, it’s too easy to stop writing. Never let a day go by where you don’t fill two A4/letter-size pages with normal-size kanji. In all likelihood, you will be more proficient at writing kanji than most adults in Japan currently are, and that’s fine.].
10,000 Sentences... « Aspiring Polyglot said,
April 16, 2007 @ 6:30 pm
[…] While the weather is still gorgeous outside, I thought it was time for an update on my Persian and Dutch studies. First of all, I’d like to say that I’m considering using a method I read about on All Japanese All The Time.Com. The author’s method involves choosing 10,000 sentences in your target language from a variety of sources and learning them thoroughly. I’d imagine that this is quite a good way to approach language learning as we *do* speak in sentences at the end of the day (although learning new vocabulary should not be ignored either). […]
Yorkii said,
July 1, 2007 @ 2:10 am
I have a question. i do hope you can provide me with an answer.
what if the word has multiple meansings? for example in your example above 夕食の支度をする, the word 支度 has a couple of meanings according to Yahoo 辞書: http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?p=%E6%94%AF%E5%BA%A6&enc=UTF-8&stype=0&dtype=3
in this case it is clearly the first meaning, but should the other meanings be added as other cards so you are more, fully aware of the words uses?
Yorkii
khatzumoto said,
July 1, 2007 @ 6:53 am
>should the other meanings be added as other cards so you are more, fully aware of the words uses?
Yes.
Yorkii said,
July 1, 2007 @ 10:38 am
thanks for the fast reply.
keep up the good work!
i appreciate the “starter packs” of sentences, but would it be rude of me to ask for a sample mnemosyne file with some more examples? i would like to get a better idea of what to include in an ideal card. I personally study J - J but the cards I make are a little different. I include a definition and example sentences with the word I am wanting to review blanked out on the question side. e.g:
二つの物の間に差がある。ちがっている。
「兄弟でも性格は―・る」
then on the answer side the word i am wanting to study and it’s synonyms:
異なる
→違う［用法］
this method is a little different to the one that you use, so i am wondering if i should switch over to including the definition on the answer side and actually include the word I want to study in the example sentence on the question side. doing so would mean that I would be studying much more passively (as in i will not have to actively “fill the gap” with the word that I want to study). This seems to be the main focus of your method and the one described on Antimoon - input, input, input and it seems to work for you guys. having extensively reading the Antimoon website, I realized that learning a word in context means that the whole sentence where it was first seen is remembered as a sort of block showing how the word connects to other words and so can clearly see that using the sentences-method works, I am just working over the fine details of SRS at this point in time.
keep up the good work,
Yorkii
Istvan said,
July 24, 2007 @ 3:49 pm
Khatzumoto, First of all, thank you for the work you have done to put this site together. It is a fun, and motivating resource.
Regarding your sentences, where did you find the politeness levels that you use. I would love to add that to my card deck consistently.
Cheers,
Istvan
khatzumoto said,
July 24, 2007 @ 11:26 pm
>where did you find the politeness levels that you use
I made them up (set them myself). The origin of the PL system is Mangajin’s Basic Japanese Through Comics. Even if you don’t stick a PL on all your items, you’ll naturally pick up what the register of a sentence is.
kurojohn said,
July 26, 2007 @ 11:10 pm
What would you suggest for a person at my level? I have lived in Japan for 14 years and for most of it focused almost solely on conversation. In many ways I was successful, but knowing what I know now, I wish that I had started differently The handicap of not being able to read and write very well was a thorn in my side, but now I am on the way to remedying that. I have learned all 3007 kanji that Heisig has in Book 1 and Book 3. Skipping Book 2, I decided to learn the key onyomi of each of the first 2000 in the frequency list because onyomi are generally used for compounds. Have just finished learning those onyomi as well. Using an SRS has truly been a wonderful help. Was planning on attacking vocabulary next to bring myself up to around JLPT Level 1 vocabulary proficiency. Actually not planning to take the test (no need at the moment), but just thought it might be a good goal to set. Just came upon your site this last week and have been captivated by your approach of 10,000 sentences. Much better than learning vocab by rote which I never felt peaceful about. Wish I would have found it before all the onyomi learning (though I can’t say that it has been a waste because my reading ability has increased immeasurably) or 14 years ago for that matter. Where am I now? I have high listening comprehension and most people who speak with me think I am essentially fluent (I know better but am able to communicate effectively on basicly any topic). When I read, I am confronted with my shortcomings in vocabulary as well as when I watch more complex news items on TV. Because of Heisig and the onyomi I learned, I can read basically all the vocabulary I already know but if you asked me to write a large majority of the words I know with their correct kanji I would be at a loss since speakng has been my life so far, not writing. Of course I can get by with my computer, but I don’t want crutches anymore! So, I want to learn new vocab as well as know how to write the words I already know. If you were in my position, how would you approach the next step? Sorry for this long rambling message! Thanks for the inspiration!
khatzumoto said,
July 28, 2007 @ 2:39 am
Hey kurojohn,
I would suggest…you keep going with sentences; I think it applies as much to your case as it does to a complete beginner. Choosing sentences is/can be a very personal thing.
Focus on your weak points. Work on what needs working on, and ignore what doesn’t. Always be looking out for what you DON’T know, what you CAN’T (yet) read or understand or say; find holes to plug. Maybe you can read 羨 in 羨望, but can you read it as 羨ましい? Things like that…
Always have a Japanese book with you. For travel, get books with furigana (I recommend books for kids around 小6, since these have tons of kanji but all with furigana because they’re cutting the kids slack for being 小学生) so you don’t have to bother look up readings; for home, get books without furigana so you can find your weaknesses. Do things you like, watch movies you like, but do it all in Japanese. Keep away from English; if you have bilingual acquaintances steer them to Japanese (even if they speak English, pretend that you don’t). Et cetera! Hope that helps…
O said,
August 11, 2007 @ 3:52 am
so, i decided to start the sentences thing yesterday. i think its a great idea! i already memorize vocabulary from j to e only, and i notice that i definetly know the word the other way around when i need it. i started with the http://www.guidetojapanese.org/ example sentences and am working my way through the ones that i like. i am not quite sure where i will go after that, but thats not the point. my question is that it seems like sometimes i remember the meaning of the word, because i have read the sentence before (when entering it for example) is this ok? do i count this as full recall and trust that the srs will make everything stick?
anyways, thanks a bunch for your website! i dont think i could learn japanese as hard core as you did, but i think that you have alot of great suggestions that i will apply to future studies.
khatzumoto said,
August 11, 2007 @ 7:41 am
>sometimes i remember the meaning of the word, because i have read the sentence before (when entering it for example) is this ok? do i count this as full recall and trust that the srs will make everything stick?
Sorry, I’m not understanding the question :(. But, if you remember something. then, yes, it’s a recall.
>i dont think i could learn japanese as hard core as you did
Yes, you could! Harder! Better! Faster! Stronger!
O said,
August 11, 2007 @ 8:38 am
>Sorry, I’m not understanding the question
. But, if you remember something. then, yes, it’s a recall.
eh, what i mean is: for example suppose i have 「これは魚です。」but i dont remember what 魚 means. but then, i remember adding/seeing the sentence, “this is a fish” and then i remember that the kanji is さかな … should i try not to do this? or is this how its supposed to work.
khatzumoto said,
August 11, 2007 @ 8:41 am
As long as you recall it from your own memory, that counts. Since it sounds like a slow recall that required some figuring out, I’d give it a “3″ in KhatzuMemo/Mnemosyne/SuperMemo.
ddddave said,
August 11, 2007 @ 11:29 am
I think I know what O is talking about. When my collection of sentences was low, I tended to remember the meaning of the sentence by the people / things involved, rather than reading the sentence and inferring the meaning from it.
At one time, the only sentence I had which mentioned Mr Yamamoto had him kicking balls to Mr Ito. When I saw Mr Yamamoto come up during review, I simply remembered his inclination to kick balls before having a chance to read the whole sentence. But after that name was used in different sentences and in different situations, the reliance on that kind of memory quickly became… not so useful.
“Ahhh yes, Yamamoto likes to drive cars across bridges now!”
It still happens occasionally though, 川口さん is still the only 政治家 I know at the moment, but I guess pumping in more sentences will sort them out too.
Nickster said,
August 23, 2007 @ 4:25 pm
Hi
Love the site. Not learning Japanese though (sorry!) - I’m learning Chinese and am pretty much a beginner. My question is about sentences. I’m keen to go Chinese –> Chinese on sentences pretty much as soon as possible, but I worry about the “question” element of my flashcards. I am worried that I’ll invent a question which is pretty much communicates what I want to gt across but for one reason or another is grammatically incorrect. This worries me because if I see it regularly I know I will remember it - and I will remember it wrong. Have you got any tips for this?
I’m really sorry if the answer to this is obvious from your samples above but I can’t read Japanese!
Thanks, Nicky
khatzumoto said,
August 23, 2007 @ 4:49 pm
> I am worried that I’ll invent a question
Because you’ll be INPUTting, you won’t invent questions. All your questions will be taken from correct sources.
Nathan said,
October 4, 2007 @ 6:40 am
Nice blog, good suggestion. I speak Japanese fluently enough to interpret it in a professional setting, but I’m always looking for ways to improve. I’m an avid user of Supermemo (Nearly 20,000 items now!), and I’m curious as to why you stopped using SM. Too buggy?
khatzumoto said,
October 4, 2007 @ 7:03 am
Too buggy. Plus data mobility sucked–even just copying files to a new disk was an ordeal…
Potemayo said,
October 10, 2007 @ 5:56 pm
Khatzumoto: A question! ^_^ What do you mean by understand sentence but DON’T memorize them? I mean, if I read “sonna mono wo sonna konomu wa inai, to wa itteiru” (gomen for romaji) with Kanji and no Furigana, then I’ve learnt it?
khatzumoto said,
October 10, 2007 @ 6:03 pm
>but DON’T memorize them?
Yeah, don’t bother memorizing it…It’s too stressful, and it will slow you down. You will “memorize” it naturally through multiple exposures.
>then I’ve learnt it?
In a sense, you have. The moment you can read it out loud and understand it, then you have learned it. Thereafter, the key is to RETAIN that knowledge. That’s where an SRS comes in.
James said,
October 14, 2007 @ 9:37 am
So, I have my source of sentences. But, these sentences do not have any furigana with them. Are you suggesting that we look it up ourselves as part of the learning process?
khatzumoto said,
October 14, 2007 @ 9:40 am
Yes :D.
Of course one can also use sources that already have readings given (and this might save time, especially early in the process), but the lack of furigana shouldn’t preclude the use of any source.
ivoSF said,
October 18, 2007 @ 8:47 am
good day, i just found this site and i feeling the approach you use a good one and want to implement it, now of course i have a question
i have long wanted to get some simple books to read, like child books with furigana, could you tell me how you bought them?
ideally I’m looking for a Japanese (second hand)online book store where you can order a decent amount in once and save on shipping and handling.(and be able to use paypal)
i know I’m asking for something hard, but any help would be appreciated, for now i ordered remembering the kanji(i got the pdf but like books beter)
kind regards ivo
khatzumoto said,
October 18, 2007 @ 8:52 am
@ivoSF
amazon.co.jp and my school library were my sources of books…
There’s also bookoff, but I’ve never used them.
For saving on S&H, try this article.
Charles A. said,
October 18, 2007 @ 10:59 am
Khatzu,
This article, bar none, is what has been keeping me going the last two months. For that time, I’ve been trying to finish RevTK (upto 1700 now) while looking for all sorts of ways to build up my sentences.
My sources for now are: Pimsleur (the introductory conversation of each lesson), Genki, Japanese for Everyone, JLPT Study site, NHK Brush up on Japanese.
For sentences I’ve gotten from conversation samples, I try to include one sentence from both speakers. Usually it’s QUESTION [speaker a: question, speaker b: answer] ANSWER [pronunciation and explanation if necessary]. Prior to that, I was doing one sentence each, but began feeling I was not getting the context for the shorter sentences. Other than that it’s been simple sentences.
Charles said,
October 18, 2007 @ 2:39 pm
Hi Charles A.
Sounds like you have a bit of the same issue I have. Before I started Khatz’s method, I had acquired TONS of Japanese books; always thinking that each one was the perfect book. So I have many of the same books you have. Anyway, are you using just sentences from the conversations samples or other parts of the text. Also, have you been trying not to repeat target phrases from book to book? And how, oh how does one keep track (the books present info in different order).
I think Khatz mentioned mining for sentences but not this specifically, I think. I’d love to mine all my old text books and get rid of them. Care to weigh in, Khatz?
And Khatzumoto, thank you so much for the site (and the answer to my last comment)!!
khatzumoto said,
October 18, 2007 @ 6:24 pm
@Charles
Whatever materials you have, mine them until it bore you, then switch to something else.
Charles A. said,
October 18, 2007 @ 9:40 pm
Charles A,
I’m just doing it one step at a time and changing strides and paths as I see fit. Since I’m still in the Learn Kanji phase (though nearing the end), I’m taking it slow on the sentences. Right now I’m doing Pimsleur (which has NO written material provided), so I’m using the introductory sentences which is only 3 to 5 samples per chapter.
For the sentences from the books, I think that I can use the conversation samples and the other examples given in the chapter. For the conversation examples, it does seem important to get both speakers sampled in the same card. I’m not even going to stress if stuff is getting repeated. It feels like you’re going to look at a sentence and tell yourself “why do I care about that, I know that already” and ignore it as time goes on. Probably why it’s important not to bulk add 2000 sentences via an Excel spreadsheet. Just look at what you’re adding for the day and make the call. I’m not the best guy to ask for advise cause I haven’t even started yet. You could say I’m just getting my game plan together.
Khatumoto,
No problem there. Rosetta is starting to bore me and I haven’t even started yet. Still, I’ll keep it around for now just to see if Anki + Rosetta = Rapid vocabulary in long term memory. I’m just going on the assumption that creating a large pool of passive vocabulary will not be a bad thing. Besides that, yeah, if it gets boring.
Charles said,
October 19, 2007 @ 7:59 am
Thanks guys,
I think you hit it, Charles. Mine for as many sentences as possible and try not to repeat. I seem eternally stuck in the learn Kanji phase (yes, I’m a multiple time three day monk in that respect). So to switch it up, I’m looking to finally finish RTK and while cherry picking sentences. I think the key the Katzumoto keeps stressing and I agree, is to stay entertained and focused.
As for Rosetta. I used it for a while and it got really boring. I think if you use it with Anki, like you mentioned. That would be a good strategy. Not sure if you can, but cutting and pasting the stuff, would be a good way to minimize the SRS input time.
@Katzumoto. I agree. Keep moving until I get bored. I did rip the Japanese audio from Old School (the Will Farrell, Vince Vaughn, Luke Wilson movie) and I can’t get enough of it.
I enjoy listening and can follow it pretty well.
Thanks all and ganbatte!!
Rmss said,
October 29, 2007 @ 8:33 am
Charles A. mentioned it before: Rosetta Stone.
What do you suggest Khatzumoto? Mine sentences from the program and leave the program itself alone or use both (mine sentences from the program but also use the features from the program)?
Charles A. said,
October 29, 2007 @ 11:45 am
Rmss,
Now that I’m getting more into the sentence phase of AJATT, the less attractive Rosetta Stone looks. Yes, I’m still in the process of developing a spreadsheet so that anyone can use it in conjunction with the photos and audio. Basicly, it’s take the Romaji located in a .txt file with all the photos, convert that to Kana via a website I use, then use JWPce to convert the Kana into the correct Kanji going picture by picture in Rosetta. Takes about 3 hours per unit so I’m only upto unit 3 (19 in all). Thing is, going picture by picture, I’m seeing that there’s not much meat to the sentences. Yeah, you’ll get ALOT of vocabulary in context with Kanji which is nothing to sneeze at. The other thing is, no one has told me if what Rosetta presents is good information. Am I picking up way too many bad habits with their choice of sentence structure?
As for using the program: Remember that SRS helps you retain what you already learned. If you use Rosetta’s guided exercise, you’ll definately have learned something by the end of the lesson. Then just add that lesson to the SRS and keep it up. By the way, if you do a lesson a day (40 photos) I think you’ll find your SRS will smooth out to about 60 reviews a day. I’m thinking for that part, just go Kanji sentence to photo (with kana pronunciation and audio if you can pull that off). The reverse is not necessary. In addition, think about mining real sentences to compliment.
Mark Quinn said,
November 12, 2007 @ 6:17 pm
Hey Khatz
A quick question when you get back from your break.
When I started using my SRS, I entered the English sentence in the question field and the Japanese translation in the answer field. But after reading your method on this site, I no longer try to translate - as you say, this is too failure prone, so now I just put the Japanese in the answer field and leave out the translation.
The only concern I have in doing this is that I am not actively using my brain to come up with the sentence I want to say - I am just reading a sentence that has already been created. It seems like the easy way out. It’s like for example asking somebody to write a Japanese email for you and you may understand it perfectly BUT you would have learned and retained a lot more if you had gone through the thought process by writing the email yourself.
I hope this makes sense?!
Cheers
Mark
zodiac said,
December 3, 2007 @ 8:01 pm
“Something that this method implies is that readings of kanji will take care of themselves just in the sentences you read.”
I’m not sure if I haven’t searched carefully enough, but in yahoo dictionary (and most of the other dictionary sources) the example sentences have nothing like furigana, no way to tell which way the kanji is read.
Kay said,
January 22, 2008 @ 11:17 am
Zodiac: a great solution to that problem is Rikaichan. Download that for free, and then you’ll be able to hover over the reading of any kanji and get it immediately.
AwkwardMap said,
February 15, 2008 @ 2:25 pm
Hey Khatzumoto, I’m really interested in learning 10,000 sentences using this method, but I have a concern about buying things from amazon.jp: should I just accept that the shipping is going to be a lot?
Nivaldo said,
February 20, 2008 @ 2:47 am
I’m not so sure about Rikaichan. Maybe I downloaded an older version but the fact is that I’m not getting the right readings for some compounds. For example: 慰霊碑 should be read いれいひ but rikaichan gives いれい to the first two kanji and for the last gives いしぶみ.
The same with 疾風伝(しっぷうでん). Normally It does a good job with compounds but somehow 疾風伝 is an exception.
Again, maybe the version I’m using is an old one.
But yeah, for the majority of things it does a pretty good job.
boyprangko said,
March 22, 2008 @ 6:12 pm
I have a quick question. I noticed that in your example SRS sentences, at least for the Japanese-English ones, you had specific english “translations” for many particles. Where would I grab those?
khatzumoto said,
March 28, 2008 @ 10:10 am
Mangajin
Kitacutie said,
April 2, 2008 @ 10:01 am
Hi. Quick Question. So…I teach English at a junior high school and usually when I don’t have class I try to study Japanese. I would really like to use that time to study using the SRS system that I uploaded to my computer but I can’t bring my computer to school everyday. Any suggestions on what to study or how to study during “free time” while on the job at school? Thanks!
cabjoe said,
April 2, 2008 @ 2:38 pm
Kitacutie,
Try Anki - it works on a mobile phone so you can study using that. I use this to study on my commute to and from work and it works very well for me.
You can download it from http://ichi2.net/anki/
christine said,
April 2, 2008 @ 10:39 pm
hey cabjoe,
Thanks for that! Just wondering how to DL it b/c it asks me to choose from windows, Mac, and two other options that aren’t supported by my keitai. :/ Thanks again!
Sarah said,
June 2, 2008 @ 1:56 pm
My one concern about this is: Where do speaking and listening come in? I mean, I know you’re supposed to read sentences aloud, but I find that the idea of “good Japanese comes from mindlessly mimicking good Japanese” is very important with pronunciation as well, so without an actual model to listen to and repeat after, it seems that pronunciation would most likely also be a “little off.”
I suppose there’s only so much someone could do, and I still think your method makes a lot of sense (Actually, my classes in school were very much about mindlessly mimicking conversations and drills to very good effect), but I’m just curious as to how you addressed this issue.
Thanks in advance
links for 2008-06-03 « regeneration links and tweets said,
June 3, 2008 @ 11:31 am
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khatzumoto said,
June 16, 2008 @ 10:40 pm
@Sarah
Listening is part of the entire process. Speaking is allowed to come naturally (and avoided otherwise).
I’m working on “linearizing”/creating a table of contents for this site, since it’s not entirely to suitable as a blog; it was simply easier to create in blog form.
liosama said,
July 9, 2008 @ 3:21 pm
Why not try reading actual books instead of memorizing sentences :S?
Mike said,
July 10, 2008 @ 2:10 am
@liosama
It is a bit hard to read a book in a language that you have no input (aka sentences) in
liosama said,
July 10, 2008 @ 3:38 pm
No but once you build a decent level of grammar by STUDYING sentences (rather than memorizing) you’ll be able to read books (im talking easy books with fairly few kanji and all have their furigana attached) Would that not
a) be a much more enjoyable learning experience
b) more beneficial since they are, actually, *real* sentences in every basic sense of the word.
and c) you’ll able to attach whatever readings for that specific kanji assuming you know all 2k.
The most common form of acceleration in *any* language is reading. You start reading when you’re at a very young age, you read small children’s books that provide a very basic vocabulary database which is implanted in your head. Then you slowly adapt new books here and there where you need to look up a word every 15 or so pages (or you understand it by context)
I don’t mean to troll.
densha_onna said,
July 11, 2008 @ 12:38 pm
Hey there,
after reading your whole blog in the last few days, I finally decided to write a comment.
First of all a big thank you for your motivating blog entries
As for me I have been watching animes/jdramas and listening to Japanese music for over 10 years now. My listening comprehension is REALLY good thanks to this.
I have been studying Japanese at university for 2 years, but only like 4hours per week and then had a huge break again. After that I wanted to continue studying by myself, but somehow I always had too many huge breaks in between.
That is why I’m still on a beginner’s level, I’d say. I could pass level 3 of the JLPT with my current skills, but that’s about it.
Since March I’m living in Japan and my motivation is bigger than ever. Since then I’ve started again to study Japanese. This time on a daily basis, for as many hours as possible.
Of course I don’t really have problems with my immersion project here. I also read “real” Japanese every day, mostly doujinshi lately. I feel that my Japanese is getting better, but waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too slow for my taste.
Actually I’m very frustrated lately. Mainly because I basically could already be fluent by now, but still am on a basic level. It’s my own fault though.
But as you said in one of your entries, it’s no use looking back, what is important is what lies ahead.
And I don’t only want to become fluent, I have DECIDED to become fluent this time.
So here I am, with basic vocab, grammar and kanji knowledge (about 400).
Where should I start?
Should I do RTK1 right now? Can I skip the kanji I already know??
Can I start mining sentences while still studying the kanji or should I only focus on the kanji for the time being?
Somehow I still have this textbook and I know what you think about them, but I REALLY wanna finish it! I think it’ll take about 4 more weeks to do so, after that I can fully concentrate on other things, but I really wanna finish this damn textbook before that.
So would it be a good idea to start doing RTK1 and entering everything in SRS (I’m using Anki btw.) while still doing the textbook? Like … at first I won’t be able to do many kanji (because of the textbook), but as soon as I’ve finished I can increase the # of kanji I daily do, right?
Would that be a good idea?
So my plan right now looks more or less like this:
Starting with RTK (btw. do you recommend to learn how to write all the kanji right from the start, too?), while still finishing my current textbook.
Then finish RTK1, after that start with sentence mining.
I intend to use “Kanji in Context” (do you know that book? can you recommend it?), A Dictionary of Basic + Intermediate Japanese Grammar for sentence fishing as well as all of my manga, doujinshi, jdrama, anime, variety shows, daily life conversation etc.
Would it hurt to still continue studying Eng-Jap (isolated) vocab via SRS in addition to the sentence input? Yes, I’m still a little bit doubtful - that’s why I feel saver to do a little bit more active studying alongside.
I’m thinking about getting a Japanese teacher here. It’s not like a class, more like a volunteer person who will have a conversation with me or whatever.
I’m not sure if this will help me at all at my current level.
I think my main problem is that I have bought too much material and that I’m too impatient. I’m really sacrificing almost every single second I have to study Japanese and in my free time I listen to Japanese music or watch Japanese tv.
I think that’s all for now.
Of course I’m also happy to hear about other peoples’ opinions and am very thankful for hints of any kind.
(Please ignore any mistakes I’ve made. I’m not an English native-speaker.)
Bye (^-^)/
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August 15, 2008 @ 12:01 am
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Top Thai Language Learning Resources said,
August 20, 2008 @ 8:15 pm
[…] 10,000 Sentences How. […]
konakona said,
August 23, 2008 @ 12:44 am
i was wondering if i put this correctly into the srs. i got the sentence from the grammar book “Japanese sentence patterns for effective communication”.
QUESTION: 試験は難しかったり、やさしかったりする。
ANSWER: し・けん は むず・かったり、 やさしかったり する
exam (as for) sometimes difficult sometimes easy to do
exams are sometimes difficult and sometimes easy