Comments on: 10,000 Sentences: Input Before Output

By: Progress on life focuses: shifting my creative processes in life

Progress on life focuses: shifting my creative processes in life — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 01:01:06 +0000

[...] key thing I want to grasp is being able to natrually say some of these sentences over time through hearing/seeing/observing the accurate sentences over time. This benefits me a lot more than just writing sentneces. I won't say much right now, since [...]

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By: Mr Dax

Mr Dax — Fri, 10 Jun 2011 08:49:34 +0000

“I’m sorry to contradict what you’re saying (not to be rude, but..) I’ve gotta put my two cents in here before someone gets hurt. >.<;"

Natalie, believe me , no one is being hurt here. As you see, people are enjoying in their L2,L3 etc…

"Ask any exchange student (or my now quad-lingual Sweedish friend): the best way to learn a language is to TALK.. You need to practice putting thoughts in your head into words. (not matter what the result is!) It is proof of what you are really retaining/can use on the fly."

So basically one can talk about things one doesn't know? Is there some kind of language source that we don't know (apart from the brain)?
Also, I am now in a foreign country and I am surrounded by exchange and foreign students, 99%of them were required to have at least intermediate knowledge of language (German) and then they were sent to special preparatory schools to reach C1 level in German. Four months, 5 days/week, 4h/day plus self learning.So you see, that is a lot of daily input.

"At the beginning of my stay in Japan, I tried the input-before-output method (I thought the same: If I can think things in Japanese, I will definitely be able to say them later!), and it failed miserably (MISERABLY!!!)."

So you decided to come to this site to warn others, not to make your mistakes and it is possible to think in a foreign language and not being able to speak. That is something new.
How much input did you put? 10 000 sentences. All Japanese All the Time?

"I only began becoming fluent when I made daily efforts to produce sentences and messages. So what if my grammar was a little off?"

So what is the difference between your method and AJATT? 10 000 sentences, most of them written also with the hand.

"I was always monitoring what I was hearing and saying, and listening to how native speakers word their sentences and use certain words. It didn’t take longer than a week for me to be able to fix a mistake I had been making for the past few months."

Again , explained several times on this site , how to imitate Native speaker.

I don’t speak English perfectly some of the time (everyone makes mistakes; even after being immersed in perfect English nearly my entire life), and I speak Japanese perfectly much less than that; but the point is I am making an effort and in turn making an improvement.

Everyone is making effort. The difference is that with AJATT you don't feel psychologically abused compared to regular classes, grammar drills, output pressure etc… You feel happy and in turn make better progress than "monitoring" obsessed individuals.

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By: Ken

Ken — Sat, 20 Nov 2010 06:47:54 +0000

Natalie said: “Ask any exchange student (or my now quad-lingual Sweedish friend): the best way to learn a language is to TALK..”

Actually, every single person I’ve ever asked who’s learned to speak my L1 (English) fluently has told me they’ve learned it from watching lots of TV.

The one downside I see is the occasional awkward moment. I was trying to read a Japanese book in a coffee shop recently, and some random guy comes up and asks (in Japanese) if I’m studying Japanese. I understood everything he said *perfectly*, but didn’t know how to answer! I stood there and nodded my head like an idiot. 「uh, はい？」

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By: Shadowing « Mikoto's Adventures in Japanese

Shadowing « Mikoto's Adventures in Japanese — Fri, 24 Sep 2010 19:14:37 +0000

[...] than Output is anyways, and I do agree with them. Even AJATT’s got a say in the matter for inputing before outputting. I do not think you should jump on the Shadowing bandwagon too early if you’re really trying [...]

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By: Natalie

Natalie — Sat, 16 Jan 2010 03:26:02 +0000

I’m sorry to contradict what you’re saying (not to be rude, but..) I’ve gotta put my two cents in here before someone gets hurt. >.<;

Ask any exchange student (or my now quad-lingual Sweedish friend): the best way to learn a language is to TALK.. You need to practice putting thoughts in your head into words. (not matter what the result is!) It is proof of what you are really retaining/can use on the fly.
At the beginning of my stay in Japan, I tried the input-before-output method (I thought the same: If I can think things in Japanese, I will definitely be able to say them later!), and it failed miserably (MISERABLY!!!). I only began becoming fluent when I made daily efforts to produce sentences and messages. So what if my grammar was a little off? I was always monitoring what I was hearing and saying, and listening to how native speakers word their sentences and use certain words. It didn’t take longer than a week for me to be able to fix a mistake I had been making for the past few months.

I don’t speak English perfectly some of the time (everyone makes mistakes; even after being immersed in perfect English nearly my entire life), and I speak Japanese perfectly much less than that; but the point is I am making an effort and in turn making an improvement.

ps. I learned the kana before the kanji, and I wouldn’t have had it any other way. There will always be more kanji to learn, but being able to write in kana is a giant step towards being able to fully immerse yourself in Japanese. (being able to write the words you don’t know)

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By: Emergency Studying: Multiplying the Power of SRS, and How to Avoid Creating Bad Habits » Study Shack

Thu, 07 Jan 2010 04:13:33 +0000

[...] in the Input Hypothesis of language learning that Khatzumoto discusses at AJATT in this article: 10,000 Sentences: Input Before Output. The idea in languages is that mammoth exposure to the language being learned will eventually allow [...]

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By: Searching for a Thai Language Learning Style: SRS and More | Women Learning Thai... and some men too ;-)

Tue, 13 Oct 2009 06:59:32 +0000

[...] led me to All Japanese All The Time Dot Com which led me to Input and 10,000 Sentences and SRS. The 10000 Sentences method of language learning is similar to an assimilation-based [...]

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By: Richard V

Richard V — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 03:03:41 +0000

Oh, I just checked your FAQs (this time a bit more thoroughly… aka reading the very first one).

Hey, I don’t know the kanji yet, but I have this question about sentences…
STOP. Learn the kanji first. Kanji first. KANJI FIRST. KANJI FIRRRRRRST!!!!!! I’m not even talking to you any more until you learn the kanji. Go…No, go. Go, and come back when you know them. Listen to and read (look at) as much Japanese as you want, but don’t do sentences until yer dun with ye kanjees.

Point taken. I’m at 200 now, so it’s just a matter of time

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By: Richard V

Richard V — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 02:16:36 +0000

Hi Khatz, I’ve only learned the kana, and I’ve got my first few dozen kanji down (and of course, Japanese environment is currently engaged). But I’m just thinking forward to when I start sentence picking. For someone just starting, I’ll be going from Japanese to English. I’m still not sure where to find these sentences though.

Where do you find a good bilingual source for sentences? I saw you recommended a Japanese-English dictionary, but won’t that just have translations of individual words? I can’t really get them from my music, as the romaji lyrics are everywhere, but there’s none with Japanese script. and I take it, for a beginner, converting romaji into Japanese script would be a bit ****? Same goes for anime, apart from where you posted the script to GitS, which I will devour

And, if I were to get the sentences from some source other than audio/video, would it not be dangerous to go around pronouncing it, without hearing a native speaker say it? I don’t have a native Japanese speaker to check all the sentences I’d need to input, so what’s the best course to chart?

Also, for a beginner, I take it running through an anime series with subs on is OK, then rewatching without subs?

Cheers for any help! And thanks for making the site, it’s complete win.

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By: Kira

Kira — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 22:47:00 +0000

I’ve been listening to Japanese songs for a long time, and picked up a few phrases here and there.
I haven’t remembered all the kanji yet, so don’t kill me!
But it just came, naturally, just like you said. I listened, and it came to me. Now when I listen to songs, I can point out a few words/phrases. It’s a small amount, but a good beginning I guess.

I’ve actually learned how to speak all the Japanese I know from watching Japanese shows and listening to Japanese music.

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By: Chris

Chris — Sun, 21 Dec 2008 09:02:23 +0000

Interesting point Khatzumoto. I grew up watching Cantonese series daily on TV with subs for about 12 years. Spoke it less than 20 times during all that time. When I moved to Canada at 17, I met friends from HK, and I was surprised that I was actually able to speak Cantonese with them.

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By: Guest

Guest — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 23:20:43 +0000

At what point does one start to mine for sentences and begin SRS with them? I have just began the Kanji phase but have read most of the articles in this “Blook”. When I do begin I am slightly confused as to how you proceed to start mining if you have no idea how anything is pronounced or how a phrase/sentence is supposed to look, since RTK focuses on being able to produce Kanji from memory.

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By: Top Thai Language Learning Resources

Top Thai Language Learning Resources — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:04:37 +0000

[...] 10,000 Sentences Input Before Output. [...]

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By: Searching for a Thai Language Learning Style

Searching for a Thai Language Learning Style — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:00:54 +0000

[...] led me to All Japanese All The Time Dot Com which led me to Input and 10,000 Sentences and SRS. The 10000 Sentences method of language learning is similar to an assimilation-based [...]

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By: Mad Japanese Mnemonics « Polyglot To Be

Mad Japanese Mnemonics « Polyglot To Be — Mon, 28 Jan 2008 06:14:29 +0000

[...] 10,000 Sentences: Input before Output [...]

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By: Amanda

Amanda — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 04:30:33 +0000

To J-Dog, the first guy who commented on this thread: regarding not knowing a kanji or a way to look it up – the delightful Canon V90 electronic dictionary, light of my signs-and-letters life, lets you write in kanji to look up. First, learn the basic stroke order for writing kanji. Then you can just write them in and get the furigana (and, if you want, the English definition).

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By: khatzumoto

khatzumoto — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 02:58:11 +0000

@Dazyrue
I can’t give you a date and time. I’ll just say it’s like you reach a critical mass. Like, when you watch a movie or TV commercial or listen to a song in, say, English. You understand it fully. But you don’t know the from memory. But you keep watching/listening — it keeps getting played. Until suddenly, you can sing along or speak along effortlessly. So, when you do start speaking, it will come in whole chunks that are correct and effortless.

It’s like that.

So keep patiently inputting. Output will come. And give yourself some credit — you understand Japanese, dude! You’ll have plenty of time and opportunity to speak once you’re able. Until then, just enjoy your input. Remember, that you’re still a baby, Japanesewise. No one takes an x-month old baby and goes: “why aren’t you speaking yet? you need to earn your keep!!”, and neither should you to yourself.

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By: Dazyrue

Dazyrue — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 01:57:59 +0000

I completely understand the input before output. But is there a happy medium?? Im lucky enough to have a lot of japanese friends who speak mostly always in japanese, input that way is easy, But . . They also want me to speak in japanese (especially my boyfriend). I tell them I will, and mainly stick will the small things I know for a fact, but I usually dont ever talk in japanese. Also I work at a hotel and I have so many guest from Japan who speak no english. I am the only one who speaks any japanese. I guess then I kinda have to, but because I dont speak it a lot I get mixed up and it takes forever to get out a sentence even if I know it. Understanding them (thanks to input input input) is VERY easy, I just cant talk back. Does doing the sentences and things really help you actually get the stuff out that you want to say? Or do I just really need to wait until the sentences “kick in” and not worry about it?? I guess what Im trying to ask is when does the speaking part actually come in?

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By: My Current Strategies For Language Learning | babelhut.com

My Current Strategies For Language Learning | babelhut.com — Sun, 07 Oct 2007 07:36:08 +0000

[...] of this method goes to Khatzumoto, the author of the wonderful blog All Japanese All The Time. In his words: … the hypothesis [is] that input (reading, listening) matters more than output (writing, [...]

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By: khatzumoto

khatzumoto — Tue, 11 Sep 2007 06:56:02 +0000

I have heard that advice before, from Matz (who’s from Japan), the creator of Ruby. And maybe one other place “The Pragmatic Programmer: From Journeyman to Master” [not sure about this reference]. I do see that correlation. And, for many professional programmers, the ability to read code is as important as writing it, since they often inherit so much old stuff.

But…I don’t think I’ve read that much code thus far . Not consciously, anyway.

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