Comments on: The “Flat” Approach To Languages With Tons of Inflection http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat How to learn Japanese. On your own, having fun and to fluency. Sat, 31 Jul 2010 06:35:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Lindsey http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-46632 Lindsey Sun, 27 Jun 2010 05:51:37 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-46632 Hey, could you alter your site code to stop forcing separate windows or tabs to open when a link is clicked? It ends up taking more RAM than necessary. Hey, could you alter your site code to stop forcing separate windows or tabs to open when a link is clicked? It ends up taking more RAM than necessary.

]]> By: All Japanese All The Time Dot Com: How to learn Japanese. On your own, having fun and to fluency. » Success Story: I’ve finally figured out this AJATT thing http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-35659 All Japanese All The Time Dot Com: How to learn Japanese. On your own, having fun and to fluency. » Success Story: I’ve finally figured out this AJATT thing Sat, 20 Mar 2010 23:22:19 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-35659 [...] I understood the input hypothesis, but I didn’t understand the implications, specifically on our biology. I figured that was just “We learn better by seeing examples than by trying to use grammar to produce sentences” — but that’s only half way there. I’m realizing that we learn better by seeing examples and not attempting to understand them. [...] [...] I understood the input hypothesis, but I didn’t understand the implications, specifically on our biology. I figured that was just “We learn better by seeing examples than by trying to use grammar to produce sentences” — but that’s only half way there. I’m realizing that we learn better by seeing examples and not attempting to understand them. [...]

]]> By: Conjugation Doesn’t Exist! | Daily Chinese Mnemonic - Beta http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-34121 Conjugation Doesn’t Exist! | Daily Chinese Mnemonic - Beta Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:00:12 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-34121 [...] The “Flat” Approach To Languages With Tons of Inflection “OK, first of all, I have a secret (the secret, the secret) to tell you. Come closer. Closer. ‘K, here we go:” [...] [...] The “Flat” Approach To Languages With Tons of Inflection “OK, first of all, I have a secret (the secret, the secret) to tell you. Come closer. Closer. ‘K, here we go:” [...]

]]> By: Ryan http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-26039 Ryan Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:15:46 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-26039 You'll quickly find that the cases in Finnish are by no means terrifying...in fact the only difference between the cases of Finnish and the particles of Japanese are that when you attach the "particle"/case ending stuff sometimes happen to the original word. They're just as easy to use though, and generally pretty easy to recognize. In fact...the only problem they might cause for people is being able to look a word up in a dictionary, because when you find a word looking like "alusta" you don't know that it's probably actually the word "alku" in disguise (it could be other words too though...). A really useful website to get around this problem is http://www2.lingsoft.fi/cgi-bin/fintwol , you can put any word as you find it in Finnish and it tells you what word to look up in the dictionary! It also tells you other things like what case it is in...or tense...or singular or plural, but you don't really need most of that exactly like Khatz describes! You’ll quickly find that the cases in Finnish are by no means terrifying…in fact the only difference between the cases of Finnish and the particles of Japanese are that when you attach the “particle”/case ending stuff sometimes happen to the original word. They’re just as easy to use though, and generally pretty easy to recognize. In fact…the only problem they might cause for people is being able to look a word up in a dictionary, because when you find a word looking like “alusta” you don’t know that it’s probably actually the word “alku” in disguise (it could be other words too though…). A really useful website to get around this problem is http://www2.lingsoft.fi/cgi-bin/fintwol , you can put any word as you find it in Finnish and it tells you what word to look up in the dictionary! It also tells you other things like what case it is in…or tense…or singular or plural, but you don’t really need most of that exactly like Khatz describes!

]]> By: Eldon http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-25641 Eldon Fri, 02 Oct 2009 12:29:33 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-25641 Captal: That site rocks, cheers :D Captal:

That site rocks, cheers :D

]]> By: The Chosen One http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-25630 The Chosen One Fri, 02 Oct 2009 04:04:32 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-25630 My guess is that the vast majority of words will only be used in one or two particular cases each (for example: 'air strike' is usually used as a noun, but the other day I heard someone say 'they got air stricken' and I laughed for about 10 minutes straight because of how funny that sounded.... although grammatically correct, I think, most of all words will only be heard in one particular pattern). Only the most common words will be used in all cases, so in the end, it probably turns out that Finish has just about the same amount of "stuff" to learn as all other languages. My guess is that the vast majority of words will only be used in one or two particular cases each (for example: ‘air strike’ is usually used as a noun, but the other day I heard someone say ‘they got air stricken’ and I laughed for about 10 minutes straight because of how funny that sounded…. although grammatically correct, I think, most of all words will only be heard in one particular pattern). Only the most common words will be used in all cases, so in the end, it probably turns out that Finish has just about the same amount of “stuff” to learn as all other languages.

]]> By: NDN http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-25616 NDN Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:32:11 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-25616 Makes a lot of sense. Indeed, in many sentences I would just write the meaning of a verb in it's infinitive(?) although that verb in the sentence was in a modified(?) form. And then I would struggle every time I reviewed those sentences. Some weeks ago I started applying this "flat" approach and just write the meaning of the verb in the infinitive and in the tense in which it appears in the actual sentence. Example: Question: 研ぎ澄まされた五感から生み出せる Answer: 研ぎ澄まされる 【とぎすまされる】 (v5s) to be sharpened 研ぎ澄ます 【とぎすます】 (v5s) to sharpen 五感 【ごかん】 (n) the five senses 生み出せる 【うみだせる】 (v5s)can produce 生み出す 【うみだす】 (v5s)to produce And then I just let my brain work. :) Makes a lot of sense. Indeed, in many sentences I would just write the meaning of a verb in it’s infinitive(?) although that verb in the sentence was in a modified(?) form. And then I would struggle every time I reviewed those sentences. Some weeks ago I started applying this “flat” approach and just write the meaning of the verb in the infinitive and in the tense in which it appears in the actual sentence.

Example:

Question:
研ぎ澄まされた五感から生み出せる

Answer:
研ぎ澄まされる 【とぎすまされる】 (v5s) to be sharpened
研ぎ澄ます 【とぎすます】 (v5s) to sharpen
五感 【ごかん】 (n) the five senses
生み出せる 【うみだせる】 (v5s)can produce
生み出す 【うみだす】 (v5s)to produce

And then I just let my brain work. :)

]]> By: Ramses http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-25613 Ramses Thu, 01 Oct 2009 14:39:33 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-25613 Sorry for plugging my own site, but back in February I write an article about exactly the same thing. Maybe some people think it's and interesting read. http://www.spanish-only.com/2009/02/how-to-ignore-grammar/ Sorry for plugging my own site, but back in February I write an article about exactly the same thing. Maybe some people think it’s and interesting read.

http://www.spanish-only.com/2009/02/how-to-ignore-grammar/

]]> By: Jasmine http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-25578 Jasmine Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:09:01 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-25578 Aweseome. Aweseome, awesome, awesome. I've been following you for nine months now with my study of Finnish, and this is just what I needed at this moment- a reminder that, despite all the emphasis on grammar in the boks, and the supposed "regularity" of the rules, you DON"T actually need an example of every single case in order to use them. Very timely and extremely helpful! For me, the most helpful thing I've done is increase my vocabulary, using picture flashcards; the Finnish version of learning Kanji :) Aweseome. Aweseome, awesome, awesome. I’ve been following you for nine months now with my study of Finnish, and this is just what I needed at this moment- a reminder that, despite all the emphasis on grammar in the boks, and the supposed “regularity” of the rules, you DON”T actually need an example of every single case in order to use them.

Very timely and extremely helpful!
For me, the most helpful thing I’ve done is increase my vocabulary, using picture flashcards; the Finnish version of learning Kanji :)

]]> By: Greg http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-25567 Greg Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:20:13 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-25567 In reference to what Seth mentioned above, I always get a little nervous that I'll never be able to find the meaning of a verb in a certain conjugation or form WITHOUT the use of grammar structures. Perhaps it's like an over attachment to an old girlfriend, but I feel it's really hard to let go of it because it provides form and function so readily. Granted, I'm studying Chinese right now and there's just 'sentence patterns', however, I want to pursue other languages and this has been a stumbling block for me on just how to go about it, without any formal grammatical training (e.g. class). In reference to what Seth mentioned above, I always get a little nervous that I’ll never be able to find the meaning of a verb in a certain conjugation or form WITHOUT the use of grammar structures. Perhaps it’s like an over attachment to an old girlfriend, but I feel it’s really hard to let go of it because it provides form and function so readily. Granted, I’m studying Chinese right now and there’s just ‘sentence patterns’, however, I want to pursue other languages and this has been a stumbling block for me on just how to go about it, without any formal grammatical training (e.g. class).

]]> By: きのこ http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-25565 きのこ Wed, 30 Sep 2009 11:54:04 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-25565 I noticed he took the "passion" out of it :p I noticed he took the “passion” out of it :p

]]> By: Jonathan http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-25558 Jonathan Wed, 30 Sep 2009 07:41:16 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-25558 Eldon: I noticed it too. I guess I got accustomed to the way it used to look, and always skipped over it (sorry Khatz! I bought the QRG though!), but now that it's different it jumps out at me. Weird. Huh... getting used to things through repeated exposure, such that the underlying patterns become second nature. I feel like I've read about this somewhere before. (On another topic: My First Sentence Pack is due to be released today, apparently! Who else is totally stoked for this?) Eldon:

I noticed it too. I guess I got accustomed to the way it used to look, and always skipped over it (sorry Khatz! I bought the QRG though!), but now that it’s different it jumps out at me. Weird.

Huh… getting used to things through repeated exposure, such that the underlying patterns become second nature. I feel like I’ve read about this somewhere before.

(On another topic: My First Sentence Pack is due to be released today, apparently! Who else is totally stoked for this?)

]]> By: captal http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-25547 captal Wed, 30 Sep 2009 00:13:30 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-25547 Eldon- This dictionary allows you to search by whatever tense, etc you want- if there is an example in the dictionary it will come up with the sentence it is in. http://www.alc.co.jp/ And... I noticed Eldon-

This dictionary allows you to search by whatever tense, etc you want- if there is an example in the dictionary it will come up with the sentence it is in. http://www.alc.co.jp/

And… I noticed

]]> By: Eldon http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-25533 Eldon Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:13:07 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-25533 "I’ve been doing this a lot of lately, but I find it’s sometimes hard to find certain example sentences for Japanese verbs. Like, I want to learn how to recognize and interpret the causative and passive tense. My dictionary doesn’t have a feature where I can just search for verbs in certain tenses, so it’s hard to find examples. I’ve just been using the ones off of Tae Kim’s grammar guide for now. Any ideas?" You could always just try googling the verbs you want to find in the forms you want to learn (you can find out how to conjugate them easily), and then use sentences you find there. Although really, I think in the true spirit of AJATT, you could just keep a beady eye out for them when such verbs crop up as you read massive reams of text... Off-topic: who noticed the donate button's text has changed? “I’ve been doing this a lot of lately, but I find it’s sometimes hard to find certain example sentences for Japanese verbs. Like, I want to learn how to recognize and interpret the causative and passive tense. My dictionary doesn’t have a feature where I can just search for verbs in certain tenses, so it’s hard to find examples. I’ve just been using the ones off of Tae Kim’s grammar guide for now. Any ideas?”

You could always just try googling the verbs you want to find in the forms you want to learn (you can find out how to conjugate them easily), and then use sentences you find there. Although really, I think in the true spirit of AJATT, you could just keep a beady eye out for them when such verbs crop up as you read massive reams of text…

Off-topic: who noticed the donate button’s text has changed?

]]> By: Seth http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-25529 Seth Tue, 29 Sep 2009 16:44:56 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-25529 Hi Khatz, I've been doing this a lot of lately, but I find it's sometimes hard to find certain example sentences for Japanese verbs. Like, I want to learn how to recognize and interpret the causative and passive tense. My dictionary doesn't have a feature where I can just search for verbs in certain tenses, so it's hard to find examples. I've just been using the ones off of Tae Kim's grammar guide for now. Any ideas? Also, when is the "My First Sentence Pack" coming out? I didn't buy QRG, but I think I'll buy My First Sentence Pack. Hi Khatz,

I’ve been doing this a lot of lately, but I find it’s sometimes hard to find certain example sentences for Japanese verbs. Like, I want to learn how to recognize and interpret the causative and passive tense. My dictionary doesn’t have a feature where I can just search for verbs in certain tenses, so it’s hard to find examples. I’ve just been using the ones off of Tae Kim’s grammar guide for now. Any ideas?

Also, when is the “My First Sentence Pack” coming out? I didn’t buy QRG, but I think I’ll buy My First Sentence Pack.

]]> By: BM http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-25526 BM Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:01:04 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-25526 Turska: Interesting you should mention Karlsson, as he himself has said that 'k' gradiation has no pattern (you can find it in the book you mention. I don't have my copy with me, but it's in there!). It's not a simple case of a few exceptions either, but many exceptions. Many, many exceptions. I'm not saying it's impossible to learn which are gradated to 'j' and which to nothing (or indeed to analogise), but rather that it isn't patterned, and is much more difficult to learn by symbiosis than the even most difficult morphology of other languages. Turska:

Interesting you should mention Karlsson, as he himself has said that ‘k’ gradiation has no pattern (you can find it in the book you mention. I don’t have my copy with me, but it’s in there!). It’s not a simple case of a few exceptions either, but many exceptions. Many, many exceptions. I’m not saying it’s impossible to learn which are gradated to ‘j’ and which to nothing (or indeed to analogise), but rather that it isn’t patterned, and is much more difficult to learn by symbiosis than the even most difficult morphology of other languages.

]]> By: Turska http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-25520 Turska Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:30:39 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-25520 Dear BA, I'm a native speaker of Finnish, and I can assure you that for any newly made-up Finnish word, I can always instinctively tell how the word changes (or doesn't change) when inflected. I think this means that there is a general pattern, from which there are a number of exceptions. There are only a finite number of exceptions. After a few years or so of extensive Finnish input, I'm sure you will have learned all the main exceptions and developed a feeling for "what sounds right". I'm really pleased to hear that someone is studying Finnish. :) Finns generally show great respect for foreigners who have learned Finnish to a functional level. Personally, I think that students of Finnish will benefit from occasionally leafing through a competent grammar book. I'd recommend "Finnish: An Essential Grammar" by Fred Karlsson. I have found its Finnish edition useful for learning to see (not just feel) the patterns of my native tongue. Dear BA,

I’m a native speaker of Finnish, and I can assure you that for any newly made-up Finnish word, I can always instinctively tell how the word changes (or doesn’t change) when inflected. I think this means that there is a general pattern, from which there are a number of exceptions. There are only a finite number of exceptions. After a few years or so of extensive Finnish input, I’m sure you will have learned all the main exceptions and developed a feeling for “what sounds right”.

I’m really pleased to hear that someone is studying Finnish. :) Finns generally show great respect for foreigners who have learned Finnish to a functional level.

Personally, I think that students of Finnish will benefit from occasionally leafing through a competent grammar book. I’d recommend “Finnish: An Essential Grammar” by Fred Karlsson. I have found its Finnish edition useful for learning to see (not just feel) the patterns of my native tongue.

]]> By: BA http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-25515 BA Tue, 29 Sep 2009 09:29:40 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-25515 Finnish has some words which change internally when conjugated for certain cases. Often, 'k' will change to 'j', but it can also disappear entirely. It is not possible to tell, simply by looking at the word, whether the 'k' gradates to 'j' or nothing at all. You have to learn each word with a "diabolical k" individually, since there is no pattern. It's like learning irregular verbs, but without the added help that irregular verbs are more common. Finnish has some words which change internally when conjugated for certain cases. Often, ‘k’ will change to ‘j’, but it can also disappear entirely. It is not possible to tell, simply by looking at the word, whether the ‘k’ gradates to ‘j’ or nothing at all. You have to learn each word with a “diabolical k” individually, since there is no pattern.

It’s like learning irregular verbs, but without the added help that irregular verbs are more common.

]]> By: Arro http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-25510 Arro Tue, 29 Sep 2009 06:22:09 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-25510 I definitely agree, I passed two years worth of Latin exams with 100% by going with what sounded right and, of course, SRSing the vocab ~ ! I definitely agree, I passed two years worth of Latin exams with 100% by going with what sounded right and, of course, SRSing the vocab ~ !

]]> By: Maya http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/what-about-languages-with-tons-of-inflection-or-the-world-is-flat/comment-page-1#comment-25506 Maya Tue, 29 Sep 2009 03:47:34 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=447#comment-25506 Spot on, Khatz. I speak Russian at home with my parents, and according to my parents/other Russian adults, I speak correctly/grammatically. But I don't even know how many cases Russian has, let alone what the cases are and what each one is for. Nor do I know which verbs are irregular. You don't need to know any of this stuff. It just doesn't matter. You don't need to know that "us" is some fancy inflected form of "we" to be able to know when to say which; likewise, you don't need to learn cases or verbs seperately in a language to know how to use them. You can pick up anything, given sufficient exposure. Spot on, Khatz.

I speak Russian at home with my parents, and according to my parents/other Russian adults, I speak correctly/grammatically. But I don’t even know how many cases Russian has, let alone what the cases are and what each one is for. Nor do I know which verbs are irregular.

You don’t need to know any of this stuff. It just doesn’t matter. You don’t need to know that “us” is some fancy inflected form of “we” to be able to know when to say which; likewise, you don’t need to learn cases or verbs seperately in a language to know how to use them. You can pick up anything, given sufficient exposure.

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