Comments on: You Don’t Have A Foreign Language Problem, You Have An Adult Literacy Problem http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem You don't learn a language, you get used to it. Wed, 08 Feb 2012 18:37:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Steve http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-183950 Steve Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:24:07 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-183950 I just studied my 2000th kanji tonight. I'll finish RTK in 4 days. I've been doing the Heisig deck in Anki for about 6 months. I don't have all of them memorized, and I let a lot slip so I'd get more exposure. I've got a big, phallic binge spike back in the middle of Summer. The keywords don't always spring right to mind when I see a kanji. But I know when I've studied one before. They're easy to recognize and keep track of. I can write them without difficulty. I'm comfortable with them. They've ceased to be foreign. And I can read. Well enough to pick up a book and just keep going forward. I'm reading Eragon. I had about 20 notebook pages of words I didn't know when I read that book in English. It's a hard book. But I can just keep on reading, enjoying it. And I think it's mostly thanks to this post, which convinced me to focus study on the kanji, Heisig style. Doing so didn't make much sense at first, but the paragraph about the "wall of jargon" and Prof. Suzuki's excerpt reveal the perfect logic behind it. The value of almost every kanji is exponential. 2000 kanji get you hundreds of thousands of words. Six months revealed almost the entire language to me. All it takes now is time to get the nuances. I think you should really stress this point at some...point. Thank you, man. Got me further in 6 months than I did in 10 years of <em>wanting</em> to learn Japanese, but having no idea what to do. I just studied my 2000th kanji tonight. I’ll finish RTK in 4 days. I’ve been doing the Heisig deck in Anki for about 6 months. I don’t have all of them memorized, and I let a lot slip so I’d get more exposure. I’ve got a big, phallic binge spike back in the middle of Summer. The keywords don’t always spring right to mind when I see a kanji.
But I know when I’ve studied one before. They’re easy to recognize and keep track of. I can write them without difficulty. I’m comfortable with them. They’ve ceased to be foreign.
And I can read. Well enough to pick up a book and just keep going forward. I’m reading Eragon. I had about 20 notebook pages of words I didn’t know when I read that book in English. It’s a hard book. But I can just keep on reading, enjoying it.

And I think it’s mostly thanks to this post, which convinced me to focus study on the kanji, Heisig style. Doing so didn’t make much sense at first, but the paragraph about the “wall of jargon” and Prof. Suzuki’s excerpt reveal the perfect logic behind it. The value of almost every kanji is exponential. 2000 kanji get you hundreds of thousands of words. Six months revealed almost the entire language to me. All it takes now is time to get the nuances. I think you should really stress this point at some…point.

Thank you, man. Got me further in 6 months than I did in 10 years of wanting to learn Japanese, but having no idea what to do.

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]]> By: Miss Language Learning http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-131047 Miss Language Learning Sat, 03 Sep 2011 01:12:48 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-131047 That's why speaking two languages is that much more awesome. I mean, damn, some people can even write in one. That’s why speaking two languages is that much more awesome. I mean, damn, some people can even write in one.

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]]> By: Ian Long http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-130814 Ian Long Fri, 02 Sep 2011 01:52:55 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-130814 All depends on how you define literacy.  From the Wikipedia page linked to the page that states the USA has a 99% literacy rate:   “<a title="The World Factbook" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Factbook" rel="nofollow">The World Factbook</a> prepared by the CIA defines literacy in the <a title="United States" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States" rel="nofollow">United States</a> as "age 15 and over can read and write." <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States#cite_note-0#cite_note-0" rel="nofollow">[1]</a>”   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States#National_Assessment_of_Adult_Literacy_.28NAAL.29   Having taught in UK secondary schools, I also find it hard to believe that the UK literacy rate is 99%, because it wasn't in some of the classes I taught.    All depends on how you define literacy.  From the Wikipedia page linked to the page that states the USA has a 99% literacy rate:
 
“The World Factbook prepared by the CIA defines literacy in the United States as “age 15 and over can read and write.” [1]”
 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States#National_Assessment_of_Adult_Literacy_.28NAAL.29
 
Having taught in UK secondary schools, I also find it hard to believe that the UK literacy rate is 99%, because it wasn’t in some of the classes I taught. 
 

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]]> By: Miss Language Learning http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-130642 Miss Language Learning Thu, 01 Sep 2011 11:34:52 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-130642 Wow, I don't know if Jemini is right, but 10% does seem like a lot. I'd say 5% may be more realistic. After all, it doesn't really matter since most people are here to learn Japanese. Wow, I don’t know if Jemini is right, but 10% does seem like a lot.
I’d say 5% may be more realistic. After all, it doesn’t really matter since most people are here to learn Japanese.

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]]> By: Jemini http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-130481 Jemini Wed, 31 Aug 2011 20:37:57 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-130481 If ABC News is to be believed, (No they are not to be believed) then something on the order of 10% of the American population is no-can-reedy. What happened to that? Where’s the…where’s…I thought the memo said…(???) Ignorant statements like this has led to the  “American illiteracy” myth, a myth so often repeated that it is quite frequently taken as fact. The U.S. has over 300,000,000 people, Japan has 1/3 of this. Literacy rate US 99%, Japan 99%. The 10%? Where does this come from? It comes from "non-profit" organizations that need to keep the money coming in. Charity is big business. Lets look an another Kanji based system - China Literacy rate China 95.9%. So, I guess an alphabet based system is better than a kanji based one ( if I go by your reasoning). Although MacArthur may have wished to destroy the Japanese writing system, the Japanese had definite plans to eliminate the alphabet based system of America and teach Americans to use kanji. Most of what you have written is correct, but which ever language you are reading your history in, it will be filtered with all the truth, lies and bigotry of that culture and writing system. Jemini Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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]]> By: Mastery is Mastering the Basics | AJATT | All Japanese All The Time http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-77045 Mastery is Mastering the Basics | AJATT | All Japanese All The Time Sat, 12 Feb 2011 08:59:52 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-77045 [...] ■You Have An Adult Literacy Problem [...] [...] ■You Have An Adult Literacy Problem [...]

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]]> By: herman http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-72823 herman Sat, 22 Jan 2011 08:41:13 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-72823 Very interesting article which is worth more than a second time reading. BTW, from the point of view of a native Chinese speaker, the character "闖" would seem quite a bit less than a curvy curve ball. Cuz from the shape of the character, it simply means a horse "馬" rushing in a gate "門". As long as you know the two sub-elements, writing the character wouldn't be a problem. What I would call a ridiculous challenge for most Chinese people is the charater for turtle "龜". You're basically drawing the animal when you're writing the character. Very interesting article which is worth more than a second time reading. BTW, from the point of view of a native Chinese speaker, the character “闖” would seem quite a bit less than a curvy curve ball. Cuz from the shape of the character, it simply means a horse “馬” rushing in a gate “門”. As long as you know the two sub-elements, writing the character wouldn’t be a problem. What I would call a ridiculous challenge for most Chinese people is the charater for turtle “龜”. You’re basically drawing the animal when you’re writing the character.

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]]> By: Sileh http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-65330 Sileh Fri, 17 Dec 2010 13:51:37 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-65330 Really inspirational stuff; I never really thought about being illiterate, but it's true. Also, I'm very glad Japan didn't get rid of the Kanji as it has to be one of the coolest writing systems out there. Really inspirational stuff; I never really thought about being illiterate, but it’s true. Also, I’m very glad Japan didn’t get rid of the Kanji as it has to be one of the coolest writing systems out there.

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]]> By: 星空 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-63853 星空 Thu, 09 Dec 2010 00:36:54 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-63853 @Terence according to one statistic i read somewhere [hopefully with some level of reliability behind it], "11% of all japanese words are borrowed [STOLEN FOREIGN] WORDS." I like the traditional approach they had; when a battery was 電池 and america actually had kanji 亜米利加, which looks 10000 times cooler than アメリカ (at this point i just write 米国 when no one's watching.) ever since i learned my katakana, i have hates, lothed, abhored, and [any other word i have forgotten to list]-ed them. i realise they are necessary to some exteny, but COME ON! 11% of the entire language?!?!?!?!?! you must be KIDDING ME ! on that note, you forgot to mention that, though the better portion of those dredded words arte shoplifted from english, there are also plenty of Portugese, German, French, and Dutch words running rempant. but what bothers me the most is those random english words used just to sound cool. i guess every country uses that sort of language (inundated by spanish sounding cool) this post is deffiately one of the major points of AJATT, second to teh immersion article. why isn't it BIGGER? @Terence

according to one statistic i read somewhere
[hopefully with some level of reliability behind it],
“11% of all japanese words are borrowed [STOLEN FOREIGN] WORDS.”

I like the traditional approach they had; when a battery was 電池
and america actually had kanji 亜米利加, which looks 10000 times cooler than アメリカ
(at this point i just write 米国 when no one’s watching.)

ever since i learned my katakana, i have hates, lothed, abhored, and [any other word i have forgotten to list]-ed them.
i realise they are necessary to some exteny, but COME ON! 11% of the entire language?!?!?!?!?!
you must be KIDDING ME !

on that note, you forgot to mention that, though the better portion of those dredded words arte shoplifted from english, there are also plenty of Portugese, German, French, and Dutch words running rempant.

but what bothers me the most is those random english words used just to sound cool.
i guess every country uses that sort of language (inundated by spanish sounding cool)

this post is deffiately one of the major points of AJATT, second to teh immersion article.
why isn’t it BIGGER?

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]]> By: The Wait That Kills: Before You Pwn Books, You Must First Own Books | AJATT | All Japanese All The Time http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-63536 The Wait That Kills: Before You Pwn Books, You Must First Own Books | AJATT | All Japanese All The Time Tue, 07 Dec 2010 02:44:40 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-63536 [...] You Have An Adult Literacy Problem [...] [...] You Have An Adult Literacy Problem [...]

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]]> By: Your Way Doesn’t Have To Be “Right”, It Just Has To Work: Language Acquisition and Cybernetics | AJATT | All Japanese All The Time http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-56614 Your Way Doesn’t Have To Be “Right”, It Just Has To Work: Language Acquisition and Cybernetics | AJATT | All Japanese All The Time Fri, 01 Oct 2010 00:19:36 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-56614 [...] of a structural invariant that represents an entity (an idea, image or symbol), but on the functional ability of the system to create, when certain recurrent demands are given, a behavior that satisfies the [...] [...] of a structural invariant that represents an entity (an idea, image or symbol), but on the functional ability of the system to create, when certain recurrent demands are given, a behavior that satisfies the [...]

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]]> By: Locoluis http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-53968 Locoluis Sun, 29 Aug 2010 23:57:58 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-53968 Except that, literacy in Vietnam before introduction of vietnamese alphabet was only for scholarly elite. Vietnamese alphabet was used to fight against french rule, and nowadays literacy in Vietnam nearly universal. In Korea, chinese was writing for elite, while Hangul was for masses. Emperors even banned Hangul because they felt popular literacy was threat to their power. Nowadays, chinese is only used by certain academic circles in South Korea; national alphabet is Hangul. Turkish before Atatürk was written in arabic abjad. Which was made for semitic language (three vowels, tri-consonantal root, hence role of vowels not that important in sentence), but doesn't work well for Turkish (eight vowels, vowel harmony, agglutination). Needless to say, literacy went through roof when Turkish adopted turkish latin script. Japan, in fact, is exception rather than the rule. There are far too many chinese loanwords in japanese language, a lot of words that sound the same. It would be nightmare to read non-trivial japanese text without kanji. It'd be even worse if they used latin alphabet instead of kana. MacArthur was wrong in asking japanese people to adopt latin script. Japanese language and Japanese writing have strong relationship, that would be lost with foreign way of writing. Except that, literacy in Vietnam before introduction of vietnamese alphabet was only for scholarly elite. Vietnamese alphabet was used to fight against french rule, and nowadays literacy in Vietnam nearly universal.

In Korea, chinese was writing for elite, while Hangul was for masses. Emperors even banned Hangul because they felt popular literacy was threat to their power. Nowadays, chinese is only used by certain academic circles in South Korea; national alphabet is Hangul.

Turkish before Atatürk was written in arabic abjad. Which was made for semitic language (three vowels, tri-consonantal root, hence role of vowels not that important in sentence), but doesn’t work well for Turkish (eight vowels, vowel harmony, agglutination). Needless to say, literacy went through roof when Turkish adopted turkish latin script.

Japan, in fact, is exception rather than the rule. There are far too many chinese loanwords in japanese language, a lot of words that sound the same. It would be nightmare to read non-trivial japanese text without kanji. It’d be even worse if they used latin alphabet instead of kana. MacArthur was wrong in asking japanese people to adopt latin script. Japanese language and Japanese writing have strong relationship, that would be lost with
foreign way of writing.

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]]> By: Kellen Parker http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-28599 Kellen Parker Wed, 25 Nov 2009 03:11:59 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-28599 Gotta agree with what Al said above, re pithecanthrope. And while it means the same thing as 猿人, if I just threw down "ape man" at a party, they'd probably not have any idea I was talking about pithecanthrope specifically. But yeah I otherwise agree with the post whole-heartedly. Gotta agree with what Al said above, re pithecanthrope. And while it means the same thing as 猿人, if I just threw down “ape man” at a party, they’d probably not have any idea I was talking about pithecanthrope specifically.

But yeah I otherwise agree with the post whole-heartedly.

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]]> By: Chuck http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-26245 Chuck Sun, 18 Oct 2009 06:54:18 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-26245 Wow. You wrote quite a bit of what I've been thinking recently. Wow. You wrote quite a bit of what I’ve been thinking recently.

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]]> By: Al http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-24982 Al Thu, 17 Sep 2009 14:14:23 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-24982 "I guess you could always rub salt in the old Sokal wound and claim that sociology professors are dumb, but…that would be mean." And yet, perhaps not untrue. While I agree with everything you say in this post, I could tell you, roughly, the meaning of "pithecanthrope" when I was in high school. Of course, you have to know the Greek roots of English words, and I certainly would not claim it's easier than the kanji. But if the study had used average American high school students instead of Yale profs, the result might well have been completely different. “I guess you could always rub salt in the old Sokal wound and claim that sociology professors are dumb, but…that would be mean.”

And yet, perhaps not untrue. While I agree with everything you say in this post, I could tell you, roughly, the meaning of “pithecanthrope” when I was in high school. Of course, you have to know the Greek roots of English words, and I certainly would not claim it’s easier than the kanji. But if the study had used average American high school students instead of Yale profs, the result might well have been completely different.

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]]> By: Sousuke http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-20678 Sousuke Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:39:52 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-20678 You're absolutely right. Liv Tyler is a hottie with or without make-up. You’re absolutely right. Liv Tyler is a hottie with or without make-up.

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]]> By: grophrane http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-20167 grophrane Mon, 18 May 2009 14:59:29 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-20167 What an awesome article. I'm sure you already know it though :p It was really useful, and also: "husband to a murdered son, father to a murdered wife", made me laugh my ass off ;D Nothing else to say, I must get back to my reps so I can finish teh heisig. Stay kool mate :)))) What an awesome article. I’m sure you already know it though :p
It was really useful, and also: “husband to a murdered son, father to a murdered wife”, made me laugh my *** off ;D

Nothing else to say, I must get back to my reps so I can finish teh heisig.

Stay kool mate :) )))

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]]> By: Christopher http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-17305 Christopher Mon, 23 Mar 2009 10:04:19 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-17305 That map of writing systems of the world is wrong. It has Malaysia colored for Arabic and Singapore colored for Latin. There are four languages commonly used in Malaysia and Singapore: Malay, Chinese, Tamil, and English. Malay (which uses a Latin writing system) is the most common language in Malaysia. Singapore is perhaps debatable because English is very common there, but I think Chinese is a bit more popular... but anyway I have no idea how they came up with Arabic for Malaysia. That map of writing systems of the world is wrong. It has Malaysia colored for Arabic and Singapore colored for Latin. There are four languages commonly used in Malaysia and Singapore: Malay, Chinese, Tamil, and English. Malay (which uses a Latin writing system) is the most common language in Malaysia. Singapore is perhaps debatable because English is very common there, but I think Chinese is a bit more popular… but anyway I have no idea how they came up with Arabic for Malaysia.

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]]> By: All Japanese All The Time Dot Com: How to learn Japanese. On your own, having fun and to fluency. » Book Review: The Way of Brain Success http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-16412 All Japanese All The Time Dot Com: How to learn Japanese. On your own, having fun and to fluency. » Book Review: The Way of Brain Success Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:00:41 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-16412 [...] these college experiences helped set the stage for my literacy “revelation”, which I very verbosely shared with you here. I got interested in how the Jews as a people — with exceptions, of course — had risen, [...] [...] these college experiences helped set the stage for my literacy “revelation”, which I very verbosely shared with you here. I got interested in how the Jews as a people — with exceptions, of course — had risen, [...]

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]]> By: Jon http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/you-dont-have-a-foreign-language-problem-you-have-an-adult-literacy-problem#comment-15930 Jon Mon, 09 Feb 2009 11:23:12 +0000 http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/?p=359#comment-15930 So I've let this one stew for a while, but it finally boiled over. I've got several objections, not necessarily to the main thrust of your post, but to the details. The first, of course, is the assertion that only puppets of the US wanted to get rid of Kanji. Unless you've got some evidence that he's a puppet, you have the case of, say, 志賀直哉, who wanted to do away with Japanese <em>entirely</em> and standardize the nation on French. I suspect you know all this already, but it's hardly intellectually honest to leave it out. Additionally, the "power of kanji" in your examples is actually the "power of translation"; neither the example you gave, "idiopathic ischemic infarction", nor the example you quote, "pithecanthrope", are English in any meaningful sense of the word; they're pure transliterated Greek. You may as well ask someone (who is mysteriously well-educated save for basic Geography) what 亜米利加 means. So I’ve let this one stew for a while, but it finally boiled over. I’ve got several objections, not necessarily to the main thrust of your post, but to the details.

The first, of course, is the assertion that only puppets of the US wanted to get rid of Kanji. Unless you’ve got some evidence that he’s a puppet, you have the case of, say, 志賀直哉, who wanted to do away with Japanese entirely and standardize the nation on French. I suspect you know all this already, but it’s hardly intellectually honest to leave it out.

Additionally, the “power of kanji” in your examples is actually the “power of translation”; neither the example you gave, “idiopathic ischemic infarction”, nor the example you quote, “pithecanthrope”, are English in any meaningful sense of the word; they’re pure transliterated Greek. You may as well ask someone (who is mysteriously well-educated save for basic Geography) what 亜米利加 means.

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